In this conversation, four-time competitor and 2-time color commentator Gavin McClurg and 9-time competitor and Red Bull athlete Tom De Dorlodot discuss Tom’s continued recovery journey after a serious injury over a year ago snow-kiting in Norway and his recent emotional return to flying. They reflect on both of their recent Red Bull X-Alps experiences this June, exploring the dynamics of risk management in paragliding, the influence of gear and technology on performance, and the impact of media on the public perception of risk. The conversation also touches on the camaraderie among pilots and the future of the Red Bull X-Alps, emphasizing the balance between competitiveness and safety in high-stakes flying. We discuss the complexities of paragliding competitions, particularly the Red Bull X-Alps. They explore the pressures faced by athletes, the role of the organization when it comes to safety, and the tricky balance between racing and responsibility. The discussion also touches on the evolution of the race, the impact of increased turn points on strategy and safety, and the need for qualifying standards to enhance safety and performance. They emphasize the importance of community feedback and the future direction of the race, advocating for a more collaborative approach to improve the experience for all participants.
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Tom’s emotional return to flying after recovery. The importance of community support in paragliding. Experiencing the X-Alps from a support role offers new insights. Risk management is crucial in high-stakes flying. Gear choice can significantly impact performance. Media coverage influences public perception of risk. The camaraderie among top pilots is essential for success. Athletes must balance competitiveness with safety. The evolution of safety standards in paragliding. Future X-Alps may see changes in risk management strategies. The pressure on organizers is increasing while pilots face less accountability. Safety in paragliding competitions is a shared responsibility between athletes and organizers. The thrill of flying comes with inherent risks that pilots must manage. The evolution of the race has introduced new challenges and pressures for athletes. Turn points can create unnecessary stress and detract from the adventure aspect of the race. Athletes should be encouraged to make their own decisions regarding safety and risk. The need for mental coaching and preparation for athletes is crucial. Community feedback is essential for the future of the race and its organization. The balance between safety measures and the spirit of adventure is delicate. Qualifying standards could enhance the safety and competitiveness of the race.
Sound Bites
“It’s been a year of times in the hospital.” “Your extreme is all normal.” “We need a very clear vision for 2027.”
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Overview of the Conversation 03:01 Tom’s Recovery Journey and Recent Flights 05:51 Life on the Island and Community Connections 08:49 Experiencing the X-Alps from a Support Role 11:51 Insights on Risk Management in Paragliding 15:02 Comparing Racing Strategies and Mindsets 17:45 Weather Conditions and Their Impact on Performance 20:59 The Role of Gear in Competitive Paragliding 23:51 Kriegel’s Performance and Emotional Decisions 26:48 Conclusion and Future Outlook 33:00 The Art of Technical Piloting 34:45 Gear Decisions and Performance 39:04 The Champion’s Mindset and Comeback 42:28 Risk Management in Adventure Racing 52:04 The Balance of Freedom and Safety 01:01:09 The Evolution of Paragliding Safety 01:11:25 The Risks and Responsibilities of Paragliding 01:14:05 Adventure vs. Competition in Racing 01:16:46 The Impact of Turn Points on Racing Dynamics 01:20:08 The Evolution of Race Strategy and Pressure 01:23:49 Preparing Athletes for the Challenges Ahead 01:26:43 Constructive Feedback and Community Engagement 01:31:52 The Importance of Sportsmanship and Respect 01:39:50 The Future of Racing and Community Collaboration
Gavin McClurg (00:48.27)
Perfect. Okay, cool. Right on. Tom, as always, welcome back to The Mayhem. You your show this winter was the most listened to we've had. That was quite an emotional ride for everybody listening, just hearing about your accident and the gnarly recovery. It was so cool. So I mean, before we even get into the topic of today, which is risk and the...
what's happening with the X-Alps and is, you know, does anything need to change? And I'm really interested in this because I think you and I might, we always agree and see things pretty similarly. I'm interested to see if we see this the same way. So it'll be fun to explore this topic with you, but it was cool to see you fly. You did, I think your first flight since the comeback in kids' fuel, that right?
Tom (01:39.547)
Yeah, I just had a little short flight here in the Azores just to see if I could still steer a paraglider. And then, my first proper flight was in Kitspoo. Yeah, it was quite emotional to be flying again in the Alps. It was wonderful.
Gavin McClurg (01:54.603)
Yeah, it was neat to see you land that day down at the prologue finish. And I think it was emotional for everybody. We've all been kind of privy to what you've been going through. Of course, you're feeling it and had to go through a pretty gnarly year, but it's good to see you on the mend. And you just had a cool XC flight in the Azores today, right before the podcast.
Tom (02:18.591)
Yeah, man, it was wonderful. You know, these little unexpected flights. This morning I woke up, I saw the day I cancelled my physiotherapy, I cancelled everything. I knew I had to be back for the podcast. I was like, OK, I have a few hours. So I escaped and I went for a really nice flight. A flight that I had never been doing before, when basically a crossing of the island from south to north.
all the way to the lighthouse and then back to the house and landing just in the garden 30 minutes ago or something. I just had the time to put a short, know, put my hat and come and talk to you. it's, you know, like these little flights are just priceless. I love it. It's not a big distance. It's not a super technical, but I'm exploring my island, you know, and
We are two pilots here on the island. it's really, everything is new, you know, like every day I take the motorbike or the mountain bike and I go explore and I find some new flying places because it's a volcano, you know, so we have pretty much every direction. And if the wind is too strong, we have to go lower.
Gavin McClurg (03:09.806)
Wow.
Tom (03:27.335)
if the wind is not strong enough, then we have to find some nice places. And just above my house, I have one or two amazing takeoff. can hike from the house to like a 30 minutes hike. It's my usual training in the morning. And then I can fly from there on the east face early in the morning, fly terminals or land back to the house. So it's wonderful. I love it.
Gavin McClurg (03:51.074)
And what's the latest on the leg? How are things coming?
Tom (03:54.384)
So yeah, the leg is doing better. Just after the X-rays, I could go to the APC, the Athlete Performance Center. So Red Bull has this amazing place where we can get access to doctors, physio, nutritionists and everything. So it was wonderful. spent a week there of pushing and trying to get back into it. But yeah, the X-rays are good. They're showing some, it's getting better. So that's really good. The infection is under control.
it's basically waiting for the bone to heal and as I'm putting more pressure on it and more weight it's gonna accelerate it a little bit but it will take a bit of time. mean my feeling is that it's really slow obviously as you know we're like a lion in cage, you know when you're hurt like that but I can fly, I can take off, I can land.
I can walk around. I cannot go for long distance, but I can cycle a little bit. can swim. So I mean, I'm back. I'm back, you know, slowly getting there. And I think it's just a question of time now before I can fully heal. But it will take time. Another two, three, four, eight months. I don't know exactly, but now I can fly. I can do my thing. I can work. I'm traveling in two or three days. I'm going to Georgia to...
Gavin McClurg (04:54.432)
Awesome, that is good news man.
Gavin McClurg (05:01.176)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (05:08.824)
What a relief.
Tom (05:12.679)
trip with Horacio and so yeah back to pretty much normal life which is amazing.
Gavin McClurg (05:17.23)
That's awesome. Are you and the family, you guys get stir crazy at all on the island? You always hear about this, especially smaller islands that, you know, it starts to feel pretty isolated.
Tom (05:26.535)
Yeah, know, yeah, I guess I mean, I'm lucky enough that I can can travel quite a lot, you know, so.
and people are extremely nice here. You know, we are in the center of the Atlantic, quite far from everything. We are like more than a thousand kilometers west of Portugal, of the mainland, you know. So it's really in middle of nowhere. You can compare it to Hawaii, except that it's a lot smaller. Like my island only has 15,000 inhabitants. It's very, very small. Everyone knows each other pretty much.
But the beauty of it is that it's kind of the center of the world for sailors. As you know, the Marina of Orta, Peter Cafe and all that, it's quite known because every boat that crosses the Atlantic from west to east basically stops here to refuel, to buy food, fresh veggies and fruits and stuff. So it's very international. We see a lot of people, especially at this time of the year, we see...
around boats, sailing boats, stopped here during the season. Yeah. So it's amazing. Like yesterday we were having a drink at the marina and you see boats arriving, celebrating, happy to be there, you know, and then they go again. So we've made many friends when we were sailing around the Atlantic and now they come and visit us. So we don't, we don't feel like we are so much alone or remote.
Gavin McClurg (06:24.526)
Really? Whoa!
Gavin McClurg (06:43.406)
Cool.
Tom (06:45.409)
But I like remote, so if it was nobody on the island, I'd be happy to. No problem.
Gavin McClurg (06:48.426)
Yeah, yeah.
That'd be fine too, yeah. Okay, so X-Obs 25, amazing race, amazing weather. So many, you know, we could just unpack forever. the first thing I got to ask you is, you know, until this, were planning on competing, weren't able to compete because of the injury, but you had the most under your belt other than Toma, nine. And so this would have been your 10th if I have that right. Is that right?
Tom (07:20.997)
Yeah, that's right, yeah.
Gavin McClurg (07:21.678)
Yeah. So you've flipped, I mean, since 2007, you've raced. What was it like? You you were kind of like Tarquin and I were racing around, grabbing stories, doing interviews, hanging out with Jean de Béli from Belgium. It looked like you were having a blast as I was. It's so fun, isn't it? It just being on kind of the other side. Some people call it the dark side, but.
Tom (07:46.417)
you
Gavin McClurg (07:46.85)
What was that experience like? mean, can you summarize that? Did you love it? Did you hate it? What was it like?
Tom (07:49.576)
I mean, yeah.
I mean, it was a mixed feeling, obviously, you know, because I was dreaming to be there and be part of it, you know, as an athlete. But at the same time, you what was wonderful for me was I was basically coming back to my family. You know, it's been a year of, you know, times in the hospital and stuff. So one of a sudden you're back with the people you like and you love and surrounded by all the paragliding family. That was the first thing. It really felt good, you know, to get out of my
dark hole and then you know back to the mountains and so that was the first thing or like the feeling was great and seeing the organizers and the race director and everyone so that was good and then you know it was a totally different experience obviously than participating and it was
you know, like an eye opener, really. You see things totally differently when you're not in the race. When you're in the race, you have this tunnel, you know, like kind of a...
you're racing, you're full on, you don't really see what's happening around you and stuff. And when you take a bit of altitude, a bit of distance, and one of a sudden things start to make sense, you start to understand the moves, the strategy, you can have an overlook, you know, and you have time to think and look at strategies and who does what and how. And it was extremely interesting. I've learned so much, you know.
Tom (09:17.093)
What was hard, was so fast. mean, I don't know how you guys were following these guys and flying and shooting lives and stuff because I had a hard time. I was with a friend of mine who was driving, but I had a really hard time to follow. So you're on the live tracking all day long watching what's happening. And then at the same time, you're trying to follow and see the guys before they take off. was the pace of it was just...
wide and yeah insane and really when you're racing you're like you feel like you have time you know just walking a bit and then but actually you realize how much work the supporters and the teams have to put into it to be able to follow and deliver you know good support to the to the athletes so yeah a lot of respect for the teams they've put an incredible show and it was nice to see it from from the outside and also obviously and we're going to be talking about it it's like the whole
Gavin McClurg (09:42.553)
name.
Tom (10:11.963)
risk management and stuff, when you're not racing, see also, you see things that you usually don't see when you're racing, I guess. And that's, yeah, that got me thinking a little bit. But no, it was wonderful. I really enjoyed it, flying with the guys, seeing the level of the guys, watching the lines and stuff. was super interesting.
Gavin McClurg (10:36.377)
Did you find, you know, in the, I did this role for the first time in the last one in 23. So this was the second time in this role. I really felt my takeaway after the last one was, wow, if I did this again, that really helped me. You know, like you said, you see it from a completely different perspective. Maybe, I was thinking about this when I was interviewing Jean de Bille, your friend after the race, you know, because he supported you in 23.
Tom (10:53.127)
I'm sure.
Gavin McClurg (11:05.567)
And I've never supported anybody. And I thought, man, that's what a key thing to do. What a smart thing to do before you're, take it on as an athlete to support somebody, to see that side of it. But for me racing around and
Like you said, it's very different and you're not in that mindset. Because I'm doing a lot of flying and a lot of filming in the air, there were a lot more in 23 because there were some pretty windy days in 23. Day two of this one, I wasn't going to fly in that. There's no point for what I'm doing. But every other day I flew. It's very different. You're not in that mindset. The stuff that we saw this time,
Tom (11:36.582)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (11:50.704)
I'm pretty sure if you and I were in the race, it wouldn't have been that big a deal. But when you're just filming or there's nothing on the line, it's a completely different head. You're not in that X Alps headspace and you're kind of like, hey, I don't need to take this risk. So that's different. But just to see, I had a moment in this race where the last day for the leaders above Squall, you were there. I hiked up and I flew with Simone.
Tom (11:57.362)
Totally. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (12:20.527)
and Aaron and Kriegel and Lars launched about 10 minutes before they did. He was about 10 kilometers back, but then they all gaggled up pretty quick. And I flew with those guys, know, 40, 50 K on their way to Lermous and that was fine. The flying was great, but, they weren't really racing yet, you know, so it was just everybody working together. It was just lovely flying and it was a lovely day and there was no wind. It was just easy, but watching them on launch,
Tom (12:41.19)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (12:48.111)
was really instructional for me. I don't think in any of my campaigns have I ever been that relaxed like they were. I just remember constantly racing all the time, just always trying to catch up and moving and making it going. And they were so chill. They were just hanging out, telling stories, laughing. Kriegel was being hysterical. There was no, it was all camaraderie and no racing. weren't trying to.
Tom (12:56.284)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (13:16.481)
you know, one up one other. It was just, and they were in the lead, you know, it was instructional for me to see how calm you should be. Cause I'm just, that's not my personality. You know, that was great to just witness all that, just to hang out up there for an hour. Cause I would have been going, I think I should go. don't know, maybe I should go. It's starting to come on. I should go, you know, and they were just not wait till it's obviously on. We were out in the lead. We take our time.
Tom (13:26.341)
Yay.
Tom (13:37.127)
Yeah
Tom (13:43.174)
I think they agreed on not racing until Lermos and then in Lermos they said, okay, now let's race. I was in Lermos with them. So I landed that day and then I took the car because my supporter was doing that flight to Lermos. So I said, okay, I'm going to drive to Lermos. And then I took off in Lermos and I saw the guys coming. And I've seen them on takeoff and they were like, okay, well, let's race now, you know, and they...
Gavin McClurg (13:48.803)
Then they put the hammer down.
Gavin McClurg (14:05.697)
Yeah.
Tom (14:06.599)
But what I think also is that they kind of knew that anything could happen and it could go anyway, know, like any direction. At that moment, you know, when they are in L'Hermose, they know one of them will win, but it's really hard to know who and how, you know, it's like really you can be pushing, but sometimes you push too fast and then you're in front, but then you're too low and then it's...
at that level, know, with these flying gear and with the level of those guys, you know, and...
it could have gone any direction really. And I think they know it. They have nothing to prove anymore. Like when you've been flying for a week all together and one day I'm in front, one day you're in front and one day someone else is like, you know, there is a little bit of a part of luck in there, you know, involved. I'm not saying that to, you know, Aaron did an amazing move and his option paid off and he deserves the win. I'm just saying that they kind of relax because they have nothing to prove anymore. know, the top five, six,
Gavin McClurg (14:40.867)
Yeah. Yeah.
Tom (15:08.521)
seven like these guys they all deserve the win kind of thing you know like but but it's true it's it's wonderful to be outside and see it from the outside because then you realize like the state of mind you also see how the teams work you know and and what they should be doing or what they they're trying to improve or you you see the whole thing and being in the backstage like that I think it's it's really interesting
and for sure I've learned a lot and exactly like you I think that the best way if you you one day want to do the X-HALF the best way for sure to support a good team you know one or two teams actually you know like if you go to even follow the race you know I was you know if you look at Tour de France for example there are people that go in their campervan and they follow the whole race you know I haven't seen that much in the X-HALF but I think for paragliding pilots it'd be so interesting to just rent a campervan
and follow the race and fly here and there and trying to meet the athletes and see what they're doing and stuff because it's such an amazing learning tool you know so yeah it'd be interesting to think about that
Gavin McClurg (16:15.248)
There was that guy that did the whole thing on his bike. I didn't realize that till the end. I kept seeing this guy in the red shirt. Who is this dude? And he did the whole thing, including the, I just learned on that latest post, the via Ferraris as well.
Tom (16:18.425)
I know, I saw him.
Tom (16:28.903)
Amazing, yeah. And I mean, this year was fast. like you do that on a two weeks excels, that's something else. But pushing like that every day with all the positive meters and stuff. I mean, the flying this year, and that's maybe the only thing I'm a little bit sad about with this year is that I would have really enjoyed this edition, you know, because obviously the second day was rough, but it was flyable every day. They've covered a lot of distance. If you look at the numbers.
with guys like Simon who like 200 and something kilometers, who hike only 200 and something kilometers. It's ridiculous. The numbers are really, really low. And if I compare it to some of the years where I walked maybe 700 kilometers or something, so it's like, huh, there's a bit of a difference here. yeah, that would have been a really funny and really enjoyable year to fly and to participate, but yeah.
at the same time super interesting and also kind of wandering a little bit you know because once you've seen it from the outside you're like yeah well it was intense it was risky you see people maybe not making the right decisions and stuff and you're like hmm
been there, done that, maybe I should be more careful next time. it was quite interesting for me to see. Yeah, yeah, yeah, really. And the atmosphere, the teams and stuff. But we were always trying to be there when something was happening. And obviously I couldn't hike, I couldn't go into the mountains much, so I was always trying to meet the guys here and there. And it was great to see the, I think the overall attitude
Gavin McClurg (17:51.801)
educational in a lot of
Tom (18:15.213)
of the athletes was really cool. Like everyone was quite positive, but obviously it helps when the weather is good. Put two or three days of hard rain in there, know, and then that's another story, I guess.
Gavin McClurg (18:28.656)
The weather was really extraordinary. mean, there wasn't that much OD. There wasn't really, you know, there was the big day when they were going through the big terrain and Tim Malongi bowed out. I mean, there wasn't that it was weather free. Day two was pretty gnarly. The end of day one was wicked gnarly. That was amazing. We'll talk about that here in a bit. But for the most part, you know, to be able to do, to fly as much as they did, you know, I think what day,
Tom (18:47.493)
Yeah, that was rough.
Gavin McClurg (18:57.488)
seven, you know, when they did quite a bit of walking through St. Moritz, you know, it was really wet that day, but just overall remarkable. mean, every time I was in the air, it was mellow. It was just obvious and nice and hardly any wind and really quite terrific conditions.
Tom (19:16.367)
And how was it for you to keep up with these guys? Because I flew a little bit from Lermos, following Aaron, and then the group splits and stuff, and obviously I was not really sharp. I could feel that my level is a little bit down now. I haven't been flying for a while. But I was thinking, when you're in the X-Alps, you push, you're more aggressive.
you're like, yeah, attacking quite a bit, you know? And I was wondering like for you to be there and follow these guys, you know, but at the same time film. Yeah, it must have been a challenge now.
Gavin McClurg (19:52.877)
I got outflown every single flight. It almost became depressing. I mean, the only time it was really keeping up was the first day from kids' buil. The conditions were amazing. But even then, once we got over the spine of the Alps, I was...
Tom (19:56.838)
I am.
Gavin McClurg (20:13.156)
pushing a little bit too much, got a little too low and three of us peeled off and that was the end for them as well. So, you we got kind of on the wrong side of that OD and I mean, again and again, I kept thinking, what would I have done differently in the race? You know, it's interesting. Sometimes I was finding that they were just flying way more conservative than my attitude typically is, which is again, great education for me. You just being able to see
Tom (20:20.412)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (20:43.5)
how the leaders were operating. You know, certainly like that day when they were heading to Lermos, there was no racing going on, but I was still having a hard time, you know, keeping up. And I was semi blaming that on my gear. You know, I didn't have the sub, but that seems pretty minimal. Like I said, they weren't racing. And so, you know, I just don't know if it's not because I mean, I am pretty tuned up. I've been flying World Cups and stuff, but
Tom (21:05.47)
I think also...
Gavin McClurg (21:11.024)
I couldn't really pin it down to whether I just wasn't really totally tuned up or it was the distraction of the gear. You know, because I am fooling around with that stuff a lot. And so maybe that's just that little bit, little bit, little bit, and it adds up into a lot of bit. I don't know.
Tom (21:14.492)
Mm-hmm.
Tom (21:27.271)
Yeah, I guess, know, it's probably many different reasons. But one thing I think is like you to perform at your highest level, you really have to kind of reach that flow state thing, you know. And for that, you need to be extremely concentrated and somehow highly motivated. And if you're racing, then there is a goal. is, you know, like there is an objective. you there for a reason.
Gavin McClurg (21:37.573)
Yeah.
Tom (21:52.904)
And obviously, I guess it's not the same. Like if you've been training for a year and you're really like, OK, you know that every kilometer you fly, you won't have to hike it. You like you you fool on and you've been sharpening the knife, you know. But then if you are there to come to make content, you have distractions, you know, you have to film, you have to hold your brakes, you have to do this and that. I think it's extremely difficult. I was I was amazed. Like I was, you know, you would you would go with the top 10 all the time and fly.
long lines and stuff and being relaxed in the air and flying with one hand and holding the brakes with the other. Well done. mean, that's not an easy task. And especially in these places that we sometimes we don't know.
never been there. Some of these guys did they're there every weekend you know so but but I this is what my analyze was because I tried also to follow a little bit and I really couldn't keep up it was really like you need to get into that mental state of you know being fully there and for me for example having to think about how I need a smooth landing because of my leg or you know the car is following what's next this and that and then
not there and so but it was impressive to see how incredibly like they Simon for example everyone says in the group you know they also look at each other and everyone says for example that Simon was extremely effective at Tourmaline going up you know like he would he would always catch up obviously there is it can be a little bit of the flying gear and this and that but I think he has a special feeling Aaron is obviously extremely strong when we're talking about top speed accelerating
close to the ground, know, it's his favorite thing. And so it was interesting that you have a group with different flying styles, but they kind of get along well because one is really good at this and one is really good at that and then they kind of keep up with each other. It's really interesting because they do have different flying styles when you look at them flying you see it and so it's very interesting.
Gavin McClurg (23:54.522)
Yeah.
think the confidence, like you said, there's two things that I think are huge players in this game is confidence and flow state. And those are both things that in my job, I don't have either. All of my long flights, I'm getting calls every 10 minutes from the production team. We need this, we need this. I'm sending files in the air.
I'm just as far from flow state as you can get. then the other, like you said, is confidence. It's just, every time I had to do a top landing or something, I I am not tuned up. I haven't been doing this every day for a year. The day before the race, I was up testing filming gear at Kid's Fuel and watching Kregel just tweak.
Tom (24:23.663)
Yeah, exactly.
Gavin McClurg (24:44.865)
just top land, top land, top land, top land, top land, and swoop land, and big wing overs, and top, I mean, was just still one day before the race, just nailing it over, and over, and over, smiling, and having fun, and just training to the bitter end. And I haven't done that many top landings in a year. And so it was, I think so much of it is just that little bit of, not a little bit, a lot.
Tom (24:55.942)
Yeah.
Tom (25:05.392)
Yeah.
Tom (25:10.385)
of course.
Gavin McClurg (25:11.473)
of just that, yeah, like you said, like the confidence. I thought about it too a lot in, you know, like you don't see Simone and Tommy and a lot of these guys, they're not World Cup pilots. You don't see them on the, I mean, they'll do some racing and stuff, but I really used to think, you know, Kregel's real.
He's got all the stuff, right? All the magic. he also spent a lot, you know, last year he just kind of almost came out of World Cup retirement and flew in his advanced harness and wasn't flying a sub in Switzerland and got third. You know, I mean, that's in his hometown, you know, that can't hurt, but, you know, it's just, it's interesting that the game can be played a lot of different ways. Like you said, those top four guys,
Tom (25:55.366)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (25:57.478)
They fly really differently. know, Aaron has won the super final twice. He's really good at racing, super fearless. And we have to say that's what gave him the win that last day. You know, that was a bold line, especially for someone who's not very comfortable with airspace. And for sure, he had the same data points. For sure, he knew that if he went south, that's the most reliable way to do it.
Tom (26:11.484)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (26:22.703)
but he went for the win. It was interesting. I chatted with him briefly at the Ascona turn point, and he kind of did this funny top landing just behind the turn point there. And I was walking with him, and I said, hey, you know, it's Dave, whatever it was, five or six. You're right in there. What's your headspace? And he looked at me like I was an idiot. What's my headspace? My headspace is to win.
Tom (26:26.502)
Yeah.
Tom (26:47.656)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (26:48.497)
That was awesome. It was cool to see. mean, this has always been kind of his Achilles heel and he went for it.
Tom (26:55.066)
Yeah, but also he gave some place to, you know, emotional decisions. I was quite surprised that in Maran, he decided to go to his flying local site, you know, because he was in the Lee side. It didn't make any sense. It was really working on the other side and stuff. And when I asked him, I was like, why? You know, like it didn't make sense. And he's like, well, you know, it's emotional. It's my hometown. I needed to go there, which was, you know, man. Yeah, totally.
Gavin McClurg (27:07.313)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (27:16.305)
What are you doing?
Gavin McClurg (27:21.957)
Hometown disadvantage.
Tom (27:25.06)
Like it was a bad decision that day, know, it didn't work. And I was in France seeing the guys launching in strong wind and seeing them in the Lee side. so he's that, yeah, there's this emotional Italian vibe that I like with him also. Like he follows his heart and feeling.
Gavin McClurg (27:28.901)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (27:43.248)
Yeah.
Tom (27:46.556)
But yeah, was there to win. He's been training a lot and it's the only thing that he was missing kind of thing, you know? So for him to win the X-Alps, it's a...
Gavin McClurg (27:53.232)
Yeah, this has always been his Achilles, the XL. So that was cool to see. OK, I keep saying we're going to get. No, no, no, go ahead. ahead.
Tom (27:57.383)
Yeah.
And again, you're, yeah, yeah, no, go for it. No, and you were talking about confidence. And I think where Kigel maybe at some stage lost that confidence is, you know, he's been trying to do different things, you know, many times during the race, he tried new moves, bold moves, he took some risks and he didn't work once, didn't work twice, you know. And then one of a sudden you start gliding with these guys, with the submarines and you can tell maybe there's a little
bit of difference there and I think that was just enough for him to maybe start doubting you know like he could see that it was not as easy as it used to be and then when that comes you know that comes down and then to this it's like okay well can I still do it and I know that someone in his team left you know the support team left in the middle of the race and stuff so
You know, it's, yeah, talk about confidence, you know, maybe it was shattered down there, who knows, but it will come back really strong and obviously it was one of the strongest and he had an amazing attitude during the whole race and at the end also beautiful attitude. So, but yeah, I think now we'll see what happens in two years, but he's going to be there for sure. I'm pretty sure he will be pushing.
Gavin McClurg (29:22.009)
Yeah, I was just going to say before, that was a perfect transition because before we get into the risk, do have to comment on Creele because I think people are going to be really fascinated with what we think. I haven't seen anything about this, but in camp and just talking about it, the big question, certainly for me, I think for others as well, is it seemed like, I was there the day that he had...
he actually had to have a person leave his team. I don't know how public he wants to make that, but there was some friction there. One of the team members was asked to leave. That was the day before the last day. That cannot be, and he had to handle that. It was his executive decision. And so that can't be very easy. But I think two things really aligned against Kriegel this time is one, the weather was really good. And we know that Maxime and Aaron and maybe a couple others
have his technical ability or better. they're Maxime for sure, best pilot in the world right now from a lot of standpoints, you know, when comes to gliding and lines and climbing, you know, and obviously we didn't get to see that in this race with him bowing out day two, but, you know, we, Kriegel, we've seen his magic moves and he tried them several times. You know, he calls it sporting risk.
He certainly tried this time, but I feel like he didn't have the bad weather that he, when he reigns supreme, you know, when it's just gnarly, you know, a couple more day twos, you know, he definitely could have had his breakout. And I, so I think, you know, they were all, we've always seen him shine once he gets out in front and he just was never able to, and he was never able to make those magic moves. And then the other big question, which I'd love to get your thoughts on is the gear.
Tom (30:52.774)
Yeah, totally.
Gavin McClurg (31:17.873)
I think eight days, 1,300K, which is really a couple thousand when you add it all up, it must have made a big difference. I mean, you see it in the World Cup. it's just, like I said, it's a little bit, but a little bit. mean, he always talks about if you can get an extra 2K.
Tom (31:28.742)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (31:37.075)
every flight in the X-Alps, you're gonna crush that rate. You're going to win. mean, it's those little gains. There's just that little bit extra glide, a little bit less walking, and he's the master of that. And I think, you know, I got to see it in the air this time, because I wasn't on a sub. And you know, it's not a huge difference, but it's significant. There's a difference, yeah.
Tom (31:56.509)
there is a difference. Yeah. So.
Yeah, no, totally. I agree with you. And I think I couldn't agree more. Like, first thing first is Kligel is extremely good in really rough technical conditions that we know. I've been flying with him. I've been training with him in Neeson in that area with Horacio. Also, we've been, you know, flying around and stuff. And I don't know if you wanted to prove a point or anything, but he would fly always in the lee side. He will push the speed bar full on, you know, next to the walls and stuff.
is good at this and he has a really strong you know mental spirit is very very strong so mentally speaking he can go through anything and this is one of the things that you see with these cross-country pilot that have
Gavin McClurg (32:34.354)
Constitution.
Incredible.
Tom (32:45.554)
quite a background in acro. Guys like Horacio, Hernan Pitoco, Krigo, Paltakads, Tim Lundey, these guys, they go anywhere. They fly in the lee sides, they get smashed and they still have a smile on their face and they're happy to be there. They can manage anything. A twist is just another maneuver for them if they're twisted. it's like really when I fly with Horacio, I've seen things in Pakistan in the high mountains.
Gavin McClurg (32:52.348)
to.
Gavin McClurg (33:07.066)
Yeah, right, exactly.
Tom (33:15.498)
I was shooting him with a camera and I had my two hands on the camera and then one of a sudden comes out of a cloud.
in front of me and we were going to crash. Like I didn't have time to do anything. And I see a big smile on his face and he goes dynamic stall in front of me with a con glider, you know, at 7,000 meters. So it's like, and totally normal, you know, that's fun. Boom. It's just, it's another league like of, technical piloting. Like you, would go to the PWC or to the World Cup and you see people there, they're struggling to take off or they, you know, the level is not exactly there, you know, like, but they're, can
Gavin McClurg (33:34.768)
Yeah, just no big deal. This is funny.
Tom (33:52.267)
They can turn mold, can fly with a group and stuff. They can do amazing things. But Kregel is one of these guys, as you said, like you can land anywhere, can take off anywhere. It's like Patrick, you know, they have these skills and that's that's make them very efficient in really heavy, shitty weather. So when when you have a week like this where the weather is quite OK, you know, for everyone, everyone can kind of manage that, then disadvantage is not there anymore. But you give him two days of phone and he smashes it.
you know for sure. So that's one thing and then for the gear you know I had this conversation with Advents because Advents has always been on top of the game you know they've always been pushing Kregel's won so many titles with Advents and stuff so they've always been there but this year it was actually Kregel's decision not to go for the submarine you know he thought that it was more disadvantaged than advantages so that the way he puts it he says you know like if I have to land
Gavin McClurg (34:48.572)
Interesting.
Tom (34:51.85)
and then walk with it. so I think, you know, because he was one of the first to come with that idea of the submarines, you know, like years ago, he had a really nice orange submarine and he tried this thing and he was so he was kind of behind this idea actually long time ago and he didn't like it for whatever reason. And so I think that he thought, well, you know, if I change it last minute, maybe not ready, not ready on time, I cannot train with it.
And that's where being conservative in a way kind of was a disadvantage to him. he should have, you know, like it's like we say, you don't change a team that wins, you know? Yeah, right. But it's by changing, you know, the approach that maybe you can beat the guy, you know? So I think there I've seen it, you know, I watch every day these glides and stuff. And again, as you just said, like it was a week of good, fliable weather. So the difference
Gavin McClurg (35:34.578)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (35:41.298)
Yeah.
Tom (35:51.673)
It's minimal, but it's there. One day we were in Andermatt and they were flying out towards the Foucaps and Damien and Chrigel took off at the same time. when Damien landed, plus he was helped a little bit by some early thermal, I guess, but he was really higher up and he really gained some distance. And so I think that the gear made a difference and I think everyone...
What is it? Like, it's not the glider, it's the submarine.
And again, it's pretty much the same as we just said, like, for example, two years ago, when we were in these rough, rough conditions in Feu and in the Dolomites, the Omega, the advanced glider does really well in these conditions. Like it's a glider designed by Kregel and the team, for Kregel and the team, for these conditions is really good at. So when you go into really rough weather with this glider, and I've been there, I've fly the Omega two years ago,
I could compare to the other gliders that were doing a lot more movements, lot more sneaky kind of thing. The guys were on their breaks where I could be on my phone. The Omega was a massive success actually. They've never sold so many Omega.
Vince told me that not long ago because of that it's a very compact glider, very strong. Again, it's a glider that does really well in these rough conditions with good performance, goes well against the wind. But if you have an amazing floating flying days, then maybe it's not the best tool again. So yeah, but I could see a difference. What's interesting is that you see someone like Aaron coming with Nova, which is not top of the game. But they developed something, they came up with
Tom (37:39.067)
something nice that flies well. yeah, Aaron surely did really well with it. So quite interesting. And the harnesses that Aaron was using was also quite cool. It's a little brand in France, I think. They've done an amazing job. But yeah, so what's for sure is that Advents will be working on a submarine for 2027 because you need that extra kick, know, that little extra.
Gavin McClurg (37:43.206)
I it work.
Gavin McClurg (38:00.538)
Yeah.
Tom (38:06.864)
performance now the level is so tight everyone is so close to each other that you need you need everything
Gavin McClurg (38:12.274)
It'd be interesting to talk to him, it? Because I mean, I didn't have the balls to do it after the race. just, I literally actually didn't know what to say to him. I mean, like you said, he just, he, he did, he does everything in such style and he was, you know, it was, he had a great attitude, like you said, certainly outwardly, I'm sure internally he was, he was a little pissed off, but I would imagine that the overconfidence bug got him.
a little bit with this decision because like I said, a year ago, he just shows up at a World Cup, flies the Impress, everybody's on subs, gets third. He's always won this race by so much that I'm sure in his mind, I want to fly what I'm comfortable with and I will have an opportunity to make a move. I always do. This will work out. And it'll be interesting because I saw Thomas Therlo, we were having pizza the night they were walking through St. Moritz, that really rainy night before the last day.
I remember him saying this was years ago, but this is when they were still working together that you know a true sign of a champion is to lose and come back, you know, so I'm sure that he will work very hard. You know, it was interesting. We just had the Eiger and Lars won that too and Kriegel is fourth, you know, so you know we haven't seen Kriegel not win in a really, really long time and here he is, you know, fourth twice in the matter in the span of a couple weeks. So it'll be really interesting to see how the champion comes back.
Tom (39:26.994)
Yeah.
Tom (39:40.265)
Yeah, he will come back. I mean, you don't forget this type of supremacy. He's been there for so many years. I've known him since his first race in 2009, was it? Or 2000? Yeah. And he wants to go for the 10th Red Bull League Souths in 2027. So he's going to come really well prepared, for sure. I think that...
Gavin McClurg (39:42.578)
for sure.
Gavin McClurg (39:55.09)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (40:03.409)
Yeah, for sure.
Tom (40:06.788)
What's interesting here is that, you know, it's a little bit like Formula One. If you want to beat the winners, you know, you have to come with a different approach. You have to try things, you know, and in a way, maybe he got too confident or, you know, he thought, well, just not let's not be, you know, let's not take risk. You know, it's, it's going to work or.
And at the end of the day, that little difference made a difference. And I know the feeling because I've participated in the X-HALS many times and twice I was flying a sea glider.
with gradient at the time, know, gradient had a D glider that was good, but then the C glider came out, it was flying better than the D glider. And I was, you know, it was impossible. let's be honest, it was really hard to follow these guys. You would take off in the morning and then just on the morning glide, they'll go just above the hill and you'll get stuck, you know. And so it gets really frustrating when you realize it, but when you see it.
And then it goes into your head, you know? And that's hard. That's really hard. And I remember two years ago when I was flying down to one of the turnpods with Damien Lacaz, we left from the cloud base together and we were full speed bar next to each other for like 15 minutes. And we landed at the end. had exactly the same altitude, same everything. And then I thought, well, it cannot be that bad, you know, like I my glider flies as much as he is, you know, then
then you get that boost of confidence and you have no excuse anymore. You're like, all right, now it's not the gear we can do this. And that's wonderful. But the other way around, when you fly behind someone and then you see that the glide is better, the speed is better, you cannot follow, you cannot keep up, you're trying to turn up and this breaks you down. And this it feels unfair. It eats your head like it just doesn't work. And then...
Gavin McClurg (41:35.507)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (41:50.865)
It adds up.
Tom (42:02.404)
from there it's downhill. So the branch will be working hard. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (42:04.145)
Yeah. And we really saw it on that final day. You know, those guys all took off together and Lermous, you know, not with Aaron. Aaron flew his own thing and he was out in front the whole way. you know, with the others, the other three, there were many times in that flight where Kriegel was ahead and he came in behind them all. you know, and that can be chalked up to a lot of different things. You know, I wasn't in his harness that day, but yeah, interesting. Well, okay. Let's transition to what this was supposed to be about. And interestingly, I just
Had a little text yesterday with Hansa. know, Hansa did it five times and his son's getting into it and his son had a crazy flight recently over Mount Whitney in California and got 16 five and I made a comment. Hey, maybe the you know, maybe he's we're going to see him in the X house one of these days and he said, I think it's we'll see. It'll be his his decision. He's too young now, but you know, I think it's gotten too crazy. I think it's gotten too risky and I sat.
back for a second on that and thought, I don't agree. And so, and here's why. Yeah, okay, good. I think that, know, day one, perfect example. This is a perfect example that I think is gonna illustrate this whole thing. And those of you who listening, you saw the hailstorm, you saw the lightning, if you were watching the race, crazy weather that followed really perfect.
Tom (43:08.86)
Me neither.
Tom (43:12.488)
You
Gavin McClurg (43:29.221)
It couldn't have been a better first day and most of them got to Sexton when it was still quite nice and then as they were walking up to the Sexton Turnpoint and the Via Ferrata, it got really gnarly and
Some of them were able to get up there, seven or eight were able to get to the top before Jurgen, the safety director, closed it down. And then we all sat in the hut for a couple hours, at least an hour and a half and just a wild hail storm, big, huge hail and tons of wind and tons of rain. And then it stopped pretty temporarily. You know, it stopped for not that much time. The whole mountain's covered in hail and Aaron and
Tangy, Lars, Kriegel, a couple others raced out. Kriegel led the way and just no hesitation whatsoever threw their wings down on the ground, made it look really bad. I've never seen.
a Kregel launch that was this bad. was ugly. But they got off. think Lars ripped a bunch, ripped out his Stabilo trying to do it and then kind of fell over the cliff and got out of there. And then Simone and a couple others looked and walked. They just walked down. And it wasn't so much the...
Tom (44:29.306)
Hmm.
Gavin McClurg (44:48.295)
what was happening at the moment, but it was where they were flying into, you know, and this was all captured because there's all of us media people up there and we all caught it. And then they all ended up getting penalized. They got a three hour penalty, which didn't end up affecting things very much at all. But I don't have a problem with that call, you know, that there is a rule that they can penalize for risky behavior. And certainly they were, this was not recreational flying, which XELPS rarely is, but.
Anyway, my point is when I was standing there watching them do this, I was asking myself, what would you do? What would you do right now if you were in this race? And it's 100%. It wasn't, I don't know. It was, I would launch. And you and I have done what they did dozens of times in our careers of this race. You just, you don't hesitate and it's what you have to do.
Tom (45:32.594)
Mm-hmm.
Gavin McClurg (45:46.802)
My thought is because we're so heavily social media and we've got so many cameras out there and so many teams have their own media people now as you've had in the past and Paul Gusserbauer and but most teams do they've got a media and everything is out there. So it's just a very different media race than it was in 2015 and 2009. I think these risks have been taken all along but everybody's just
Tom (46:02.205)
Yeah.
Tom (46:16.198)
I told you.
Gavin McClurg (46:16.827)
seeing them more.
Tom (46:18.44)
Totally agree with it, like with what you just said. I can recall moments in 2007, 2009, 2011, 2013, where people tell me stories or things I've seen by myself, you know, and I wasn't filming. We didn't have smartphone by then, you know, but that were even worse than that. I remember training in 2011, flying in the rain to see if the glider would do well, you know, in heavy rain. We would train flying in the rain, you know.
Gavin McClurg (46:28.755)
All of them.
Tom (46:48.426)
and we would fly in the rain all the time. So it's a difficult one because obviously now it goes out there, you know, and people share it and people talk about it and a lot of people comment it. And we are in this culture of everyone has a say, know, everyone wants to say what it thinks about, you know, and so it all comes out like that, you know, and everyone has something to say about it. I agree with you. I think it was always like that.
But I still, and I would even say more than that, I think it was worse. Because imagine in 2007, Vincent Springley, just to give an example, he had a paragliding harness without back protection, zero back protection. It was like a string harness. No cocoon, just a line. His rescue parachute, I was with him when we made it. We built it ourselves at Supair, you know, with, at the time, with the guys there.
certified it was the tiniest little rescue parachute he made himself like the whole thing because we didn't have to have any certified helmets we were flying with bike biking helmets like the lightest one you could find you know back protection was not mandatory there no no rest 24 7 we would we would fly you know here and there like I remember
Gavin McClurg (48:03.166)
No rest. No rest period.
Tom (48:11.31)
falling asleep flying and hitting my face, you know, during the flight and then land and people will say what happened? What happened to your face? was all red because I was just slapped myself to try to stay awake. I remember falling asleep, hiking during the night and smashing my head on the tarmac, you know. So it was more an adventure than what it was now, but I think it was necessary to
come to the safest, to make it safer somehow with certified gliders, with back protection, know, these back protections, they saved a few people in the last few editions. now just to come back to this, now obviously it's everywhere, everyone films it.
What doesn't help is that some people decide, no, some people are smart enough to decide not to fly and some people are maybe a little bit more reckless and they go and fly in these conditions. And then that creates the debate. If everyone had been flying down, then I guess maybe there would not have been any penalty, you know, but then it creates a moment where you say, well, it's not fair for the people who are safe.
It's dangerous. It's not a good example. And because it was the first day of the race and the whole thing was kind messy with the Via Ferrata and the Thunderstorm and stuff, I think they had to make a call. Now, when I look at the penalty time, let's be honest, as you just said, it didn't make a difference. Like three hours, it's the time that they took to walk down, basically almost. So that's a bit unfair if you want, like I would have said maybe minimum six hours or something and to really hit and to give an
example.
Tom (49:57.711)
So that's a difficult one and it comes down to the big debates behind it, which is should we allow people to fly in these conditions? Should we allow them to make their own decisions? And there again, I think we will agree, but it's very personal and, you know, it also depends a little bit on the culture. When you hear someone from Switzerland or Germany, they'll say, yeah, we need some rules and we forbid everything. When you hear someone from South America or the States or Belgium, we're like,
now let's give freedom to the people you know and they can make their own choice and I know it's not always a popular opinion but I would always say we are adults you know we know what we signed for we come to the excels knowing what it's gonna be about and you don't have no one's forcing you to fly you know you can always say hey guys I don't mind you know I'm not gonna fly
The problem really hits you when you have the mentality of the winner and when you're so competitive that you know that your competitiveness will push you to do things that you don't really want to do. And that's where the edge is. It's like where Maxime Pinot probably is not really comfortable with this because he's always been there to win. And one of a sudden you say, hey man, you don't have to fly.
but not flying would mean not winning for him and so what's the point of it and so that's the dilemma of these athletes and they are on the top level they're more than capable to win but one of a sudden they say well life is more important and they're not sure or they're not sure they can make that call and
then get into very dangerous situations. I don't know, like people criticize the race and the organization and stuff, but it's an adventure race. And every day, every time you go flying, every time you go on a takeoff, you have to make that call. Do I fly today or, you know, or maybe I go home because there's a big thunderstorm coming and you make that call freely.
Tom (52:01.608)
here, it's a competition and everyone is, you know, motivated and everyone wants to win. But that doesn't mean you have to go and kill yourself, you know, so I would, yeah.
Gavin McClurg (52:11.184)
I also, I really, really don't want to move in the direction, you know, the World Cup has been moving in this direction now for a long time. Martin Sheal would argue vehemently that...
there's more and more more pressure being put on the organizers, on the meat director, on the task committee, and less and less pressure on the pilots. In other words, if there's a task, a pilot's gonna fly it, because they're dumb and they want the points. And it must be safe, because the meat director is allowing it to happen.
rather than the other way around, it's always your decision to step off the mountain every single time, no matter what. This is you and you alone. And it has to be that way. And we can't control for the lowest common denominator. mean, one thing that I think would make the Red Bull X-Alps safer is to not have athletes from other countries.
who don't, you who are getting in because they're from another country and they're not. I if you had only the best of the best 32 athletes, then it'd be mostly Swiss, mostly German, mostly French. and you wouldn't have, there's a huge discrepancy in talent and, and ability and training and hours. And if you suddenly say, okay, we're not going to fly in X conditions, you're eliminating all that training that Kregel and Damian
and Maxime and these people are capable of flying in safely, you know, and so it just becomes a completely different race. And I just always am very, very, I find it abhorrent to put the weight of this issue on the organization. To me, they're providing an incredible opportunity for a rare few people to really test their skills.
Tom (53:43.546)
Interesting,
Gavin McClurg (54:06.462)
for themselves. I mean, that's what I love about this race. And people will say, yeah, but there's the pressure and there's the media and there's the social media and there's the, know, competition does that flat out. World Cup, there's no, there's nothing but glory. There's no money. And, you know, and we saw Timo, you know, it just, you're going to have an accident in this race. You know, people will say, what about when someone dies, it's going to change it all. That could happen.
Tom (54:08.904)
Yeah, I know.
Gavin McClurg (54:34.804)
we've always known that could happen, but is that the organization's responsibility? I would vehemently argue, and that's not because I'm working for the organization now. I would have argued this when I was an athlete, that I'm just thankful that they put this on. And it is, I believe most people are there to test what they're made of. Some people are there to win, of course. But the race environment is going to make you do dumb things.
Tom (54:35.73)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (55:04.456)
We've all done it. We all will continue to do it. That's just ego. And not many of us are really that good at completely clamping down on our ego, especially in the heat of the moment. But we can't use the no death as a defense. But I do believe that we have the history to go, there's something about this that people are performing.
Like we've talked about not just today, but many times and together privately that this headspace you get in is really special and it's a kind of a protective bubble. And it's not gonna always, I'm not saying that this isn't gonna happen. It almost feels inevitable. I'm not trying to, let's be honest.
Tom (55:42.247)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tom (55:52.029)
No, no, for sure. Like, let's be honest. And we've lost friends and we know how it is. it's a... that... I mean, this freedom, you know, and this free-flying spirit. And if you even think about Anas Akh, who was the one who started the race, you know, and the way he lived his life and the vision he had for this life, you know, was somehow extreme. And I am a little bit tired of seeing that, you know...
We tend to overprotect everything now. We tend to overrule everything. You can do this, you can do that, you can do that. And I've traveled all around the world, you know, and I'm like, sometimes I feel like, okay, we're getting trapped here. We cannot take decisions for ourselves anymore. Like people will tell you what to do, what not to do, where to walk, where to eat, how to fly.
Gavin McClurg (56:40.799)
Yeah.
Tom (56:48.072)
Flying is one of these last places, like sailing for example, where no one is there to tell you, you have to tack now, or you have to go left or right. Like when you are in a car, it's a red light, you stop. The police is there, no more than 40 miles per hour. The days and that, and you feel like we are living life where everything's been decided for us, like in a way. And we have not so many choices at the end. And flying offers that.
take off and say I'm going right or I'm going left I'm going a long distance or I'm not I'm doing my own thing I'm choosing my own options you know and this feeling it's priceless and it comes with responsibility it's like base jumping you know I'm not a huge fan of base jumping but I've done a few jumps and the feeling you get when you jump it's like you're taking responsibility you know that if you don't open your your parachute you're gonna smash your head down like you're gonna crash and you're gonna die you know but you're
confident enough in your skills and stuff, in your training, and you take that responsibility and it feels amazing. I don't know how I have to explain it. It feels special. It feels like you're living with intensity.
it maybe people will call me an adrenaline junkie or things like that. I don't think it's about that. It's more about, you know, really taking that decision of saying, hey, I'm taking responsibility. I'm going to be as safe as possible. I've trained for this. I've prepared. And now I'm capable of doing this safely in a way. That's also one of the the angle of the debate that it's hard for people to grasp and to understand. But you just said it. It's like I was on takeoff that day where there was those sketchy takeoff of Tanguy
of the Brazilian guy and the Italian guy, I was there. So I saw it firsthand. And I saw Patrick taking off in the exact same conditions and he was perfect. He was clean, it looked easy, and I know him and some of the guys, they were safe. They were safe. Why is that? Because they have the skills. I don't have the skills to jump with
Gavin McClurg (58:47.391)
Perfect. You look, me to look, I've seen that video, it's incredible.
Tom (59:03.847)
skis, know, like a cliff, a 30 meter cliff, but some people do. Some people do. They've been training all their life and some people will say this is crazy, this is dangerous, but the community and the people who really know about it will say no, it's manageable.
So what what do we do now? And it's like and this is this is for me really frustrating when You know people that don't they don't understand they see it and they're like, this is dangerous It's like like today here. I was flying With the only other pilot here on the island is such a nice guy But he's been flying all his life on the local side and he's scared of clouds He's scared of wind he's scared of lee side and when I went out, you know, and I went into the little
bit and then for me totally fine super extremely safe I sent some photos flying and then he calls me crazy it's fun you know it's just a listen it's like you crazy what you hold your phone when you're flying it's a comp glider you're in the lee side man I've been doing this for 20 years you know and that's what I said during the race also is that your extreme is all normal
You know, and it's and we have to understand that guys like Kegel, you know, when people are going to work, he's going to fly. He's going to the mountains. He's training. He's flying. He knows how to deal with this. And obviously, sometimes we go over the limit and we take some risk. And that's where we need to have a debate. It's like, OK, how can we make it safer so that people arrive at the race in their best mental state? And that's also why we decided to put more resting time, you know, the pilots. We were pushing for that, because obviously, when
you're extremely tired then your decision-making is not as good and then it's another type of problem because you're not there to fly at your best level. So we got that. Now we can sleep a little bit more. We have bigger teams. We used to have only one supporter. That was basic. I remember days in 2007 where I would see my supporter just in the evening once. I would queue at the shops to buy some food or an ice cream in Italy.
Tom (01:01:10.971)
It's better now. It is getting better. The gear is flying so much better, so much safer, so much more passive safety.
Gavin McClurg (01:01:15.989)
and all the gears being checked and all the equipment's being checked. And there's a lot of things just in my time, just in 2015 that have changed for the better. Like you said, certified harnesses, certified helmets, certified wings, these are all great things. Yeah, like I said, you could.
You could make there, there could be a kind of a qualifying, more of a qualifying event. mean, I think you could, you could smash the ability together a little bit more. You know, that would make it less interesting in a sense, you know, all the countries is great. You know, but it does, people are really pushing, you know, there's hike and fly races all around the world now, you know, and, and most people these days that
Tom (01:01:46.781)
That's for sure.
Gavin McClurg (01:02:02.793)
get to the level of the Red Bull X-Alps have done several of these. So they're not coming in completely blind. This is the thing. Let's just hit this head on. Will Gad put up a great post during the race taking this on as he always does very articulately and was just questioning this. in the comments down below, there was a comment that, yeah, but it's setting the example.
It's so and so sitting on launch and sees what Kriegel can do and thinks, yeah, I can do that. Come on, that's just horseshit. I hate this argument. I just can't stand this one. You can't look at someone like Kriegel and go, yeah, I got that move. I mean, if anybody does, they're really short on this earth. I don't ever look at Kriegel and go, yeah, I've got that move.
Tom (01:02:42.824)
Yeah.
Tom (01:02:53.447)
Yeah.
Yeah, now what I think is like more than... Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:03:00.457)
This is a ridiculous argument and I keep hearing it over and over and over again that we're setting a bad example. I don't think I can drive an F1 car because I watch F1. What? This is just ridiculous.
Tom (01:03:11.751)
No, no, for sure. I think the example one is ridiculous and I agree with you. What I think is a little bit of, you know, what I'm concerned of is the image of paragliding, not the example, but the image of the sport, know, which I, there I kind of understand. And this is sad, you know, in a way, because this is what people want. They want to have collapses. They want to have extreme conditions. And sometimes like,
Gavin McClurg (01:03:25.406)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:03:40.303)
People want, they love watching Carnage. That's true. Audiences want Carnage. That's right.
Tom (01:03:40.83)
I'm sad, know, I'm sad. Yeah, and or, or, know, like, let me give you one example because it's just quite funny. You know, during X-Alps, the Rebel Adventure team, which I worked with them and stuff, and they said, hey, Tom, let's make something about, you know, like a little TikTok video or Instagram about how to pee in the air, you know.
Because why? Because that's what people want to see, you know? So I'm like, okay, well, just let's do it. You know, let's do it classy because I'm kind of a classy guy, you know, I'm not just going to take it out like in front of camera or anything. But it's like, okay, let's do something classy. Let's see where it goes. Well, a few weeks later, we have more than three million views on TikTok and almost two million views on Instagram. And it's like, why is that? It's because that's what people want. And in a way, it saddens me a little bit because, you
Gavin McClurg (01:04:05.11)
That was great.
Gavin McClurg (01:04:26.038)
That's amazing.
Tom (01:04:35.039)
We go flying big lines in Pakistan and stuff like that and we don't get half of that coverage. But that's what people want and that's what people share. And these videos of this guy taking off in shitty conditions, one of a sudden it becomes the highlight of the X-House because that's what people share. That's where we have to be a little bit more careful. But the organization is, in a way, like they used to have, we used to have a blog online so we could post directly to the
website and then someone will check if the content was good and then we'll validate it. That's the way we used to do so they had a lot more control on the image but now everyone posts everyone has social media you know everyone is followed and so it's very easy to that it comes out you know it leaks out it will someone will be there to film it
And that's where I think pilots maybe indeed we have a responsibility to give a good image of the sport, know, and that's where the organization can do that by focusing more on the smart guys and give a voice to those who are safer. But that doesn't sell.
Gavin McClurg (01:05:43.594)
Yeah, the people that walk down, make good decisions.
Tom (01:05:45.572)
yeah but that doesn't sell so much. When you're the toughest adventure race out there and you want to be the toughest adventure race you want Carnage. I'm not saying the organization wants it but still they know it's what makes views and so...
Gavin McClurg (01:06:01.046)
Yeah, and I mean the audience of this just take it easy, take a breath, sit back and understand how humanity works. mean this is the
Tom (01:06:06.686)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:06:12.95)
It's not like the organization's begging these athletes to go out and get gnarly. That's not happening. Of course, this is what sells. But that's not, to me, an argument that, oh, well, look at how bad they are. Again, they're just providing a platform. You and I both know we've been on both sides of this fence now, how it works. And that's.
That's what sells. That's what you have. And that's OK. That's what F1 sells. And there's a lot of carnage.
Tom (01:06:35.471)
And let me tell you the honest review. Yeah, yeah, but it's like sometimes I'm like... It makes me sad because I read comments and obviously people will say, yeah, but it's not objective. He's a rebel athlete and stuff like that. But I read things like, rebel makes them take risk or rebel does this or rebel does that. I'm like, what a joke. I'm 40 years old. I'm taking my own decisions.
If I want to try to fly in these winds, no one is pushing you, no one is asking you to do anything like that. They're just trying to provide a beautiful race.
Gavin McClurg (01:07:11.892)
Ever, ever, we've got photographers following us around all over the place. know, mean, Will Gad told me that was one of the first things he said when we were hiking up to our very first launch was, hey, I can tell you're an optimist and I don't like optimists and these cameras are gonna make you do stupid things. So stop doing it right now. Just wind it back. We don't have a film if you don't make it. We gotta make it, we gotta be safe. Just forget about all that. But it's hard to forget about all that. You know, again.
Tom (01:07:16.85)
Yeah.
Tom (01:07:40.581)
It is.
Gavin McClurg (01:07:40.855)
We're just humans, but I hate that we're trying to take away this from the athlete in a sense. And this parameter stuff is really ridiculous. The only time I thought, okay, that's pretty smart. I don't know if you remember this, but at the 2019 race, we were down at the Mozart Platz getting ready to start, and it was blowing 50 kilometers an hour up on the Geisberg. And Christoph Weber, the old Ferdy, the race director,
Tom (01:08:08.925)
Yep. Great guy.
Gavin McClurg (01:08:09.878)
came over to you and I and Kriegel, but mostly Kriegel, and he said, hey, what are we gonna do? And Kriegel said, mean, because Kriegel could launch in 50K an hour, no problem, but he said, if it's over 30, close the launch. And that to me makes sense, because everybody's together, and you've got 2,000 people watching, and you've got the Red Bull helicopter and all that kind of thing, and that's just basic safety, fine.
If we get up there and it's honking, you decide, wait, or it goes below 30, or walk. It's kind of a cool race situation. But from that point on, there's so much spread that, yeah, I want to see Patrick Von Cannell use those skills. I saw some of those launches that never went public. There's Dave Eads that everybody saw. That went crazy. I saw others that were really wild. And you're going, yeah, OK, wild, but they handled it.
Tom (01:08:54.857)
Yeah, I am.
Tom (01:09:04.201)
And also like if you really think about it, like technically speaking, how would you do? Let's say that on the third day, you know, it's really strong. It's really strong wind on the third day. And you say, we closed flying today, but maybe someone is a hundred kilometer in the back and want to save himself from getting cut off the race, you know, and it's not windy there or there's a thunderstorm in Martigny. And what do we do? We close it because there's a thunderstorm, but there is one guy just went through and he's flying. it's impossible. then, and then.
Gavin McClurg (01:09:11.392)
How would you do it? You can't. You can't do it.
Tom (01:09:34.158)
you get to situations like what happened on the Via Ferrata where some of the guys went through and some of the guys got stopped and that was that was bad that that to me looked bad and it wasn't fair and so what happens and it's it's so frustrating for the athletes you know you're like why can he go and why can't I go and I get stuck here and then what so it becomes you know you you need to also think about okay what is actually doable and possible technically speaking and
And I think technically speaking, it's almost impossible to come with rules like that. could say, okay, well, as you said, first day, there's strong phone. All right, maybe today we don't. Or you could say, if there's a thunderstorm, they should have probably stopped it before the people went on the VFRAT. That was a mistake. they closed it for everybody. Sign board. They're really hard. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:10:22.774)
Close it for everybody.
And these, like you said, these things are really hard decision to make on the spot. And I just hate the idea of somehow trying to control this aspect of the race. think you lose way, way, way more than you gain. people will argue, yeah, but you might save somebody's life. Valid, I guess, but I just, we lose, to me, you're losing the heart and soul.
of what makes this race so special. It's a race. It's a competition. I think there's a good...
Tom (01:11:03.081)
I mean, as you know, like if you really want to save somebody's life, then you stop flying, you know, because at the end of the day, in every day's conditions, you can take risks. Like you're flying from A to B, there's a hundred kilometer to cover. There will be a valley with strong winds. There will be a lee side. There will be a big cloud. They will, it's, we're dealing with this all the way, you know, like every day cables, this and that, no landing zone. So.
Gavin McClurg (01:11:10.452)
Yeah.
Tom (01:11:31.74)
So then what? know, it's like paragliding can be a dangerous sport. It is.
If you're not okay with it, then stop flying, but it's risky and you can hurt yourself in every flight. I've lost a friend who was flying on his local side like every other day because that can always happen. If you make a little mistake, you can... So what are we trying to do here? Do we want to give responsibility to the pilots and say, okay guys, we believe in you.
Be safe, try to make the best decisions for yourself. Obviously it's a race, but no pressure. And people have to have that maturity and be wise enough so that they can manage depending on their level. But if you start putting rules, people, mean, I would lose interest into it. Like if they say, hey, tomorrow you're not flying because it's a bit too windy up there. And I see the options and I'm like, well, I could have done this and that. And then it doesn't really make sense anymore.
video.
We are there to show what's possible and trying to push the boundaries of the sport and to push our own boundaries. But I totally agree with you. think selection is one of the big things. We could also do more mental coaching, you know, like before the race, like try to get some workshop with the athletes and say, hey guys, let's think about this together. Let's try to, you know, maybe think about some situations, some decision-making, you know, things like that. I think that'd be interesting.
Gavin McClurg (01:13:04.663)
Like run some simulations kind of thing. There was a good.
Tom (01:13:05.803)
Yeah, we could have more people around, you know, like...
responsible for that. Like you could have people say, hey, he took off in heavy rain or he took off in a thunderstorm. I was there, I saw it. And then have a proper way of putting penalties somehow, yeah, maybe small ones, you know? But having to say, no one flies today or things like that, that's a bit rough. you know, if you look at the Vendée Globe, I love this example, you know, it's, they go around the world for like 90 days and they go in Nalicot.
conditions like they can and you decide I go north or I south I go west or I go east depending on where the weather is and stuff and I had this little conversation with with Max and Max says no it's not a it's not a real argument because in a way they are safe in their boat and I said well tell that to Kevin Escoffier when his boat broke in two pieces you know it's like it's not so safe you're so far away but you're you're making your own decisions and you decide what
Gavin McClurg (01:13:48.407)
your responsibility.
Tom (01:14:12.009)
what you want to do. And I think at the end of the day, that's your own responsibility.
and this beautiful platform you go around the world and then there's the one the one guys who want to win and they have these beautiful amazing boats and stuff brand new and they go for the win and the others go for the adventure and that's where we could maybe put these guys in the spotlights a little bit more the people who go for the adventure you know and try to speak more about the adventure
Gavin McClurg (01:14:43.253)
Yeah, highlight the adventure side. I think I like where you're going with this because I think there is a valid argument. What I kept hearing was it's for gladiators now, it's not for adventures now. that, think the organization can, and by that I mean people like me that are filming this and telling the story.
hope when I got brought on the team for the last one in 23 was, you know, we always cover the leaders really well. Let's cover everybody else because I was always everybody else. You know, there's, there's, there's a fascinating race going on from five to 30, you know, and let's tell those stories. Celine, perfect example of that this year when she landed down in the, mean, what an epic day. And you know, when she said, it was so fucked, but I mean, that's what this race is all about to me. That was so cool.
Tom (01:15:14.525)
Yeah, totally.
Tom (01:15:28.147)
Perfect. Yeah.
Amazing. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:15:37.728)
and
Tom (01:15:37.842)
and a beautiful personality and you know again you go back to the Vendée Globe and you see Violette Doran who's super young and she did the race and she's followed by millions of people now because everyone loves her you know and that's when you call it the most extreme adventure race you know the adventure side still needs to be there and one thing that I wanted to know what you think about it but it's like I also think that having so many turn points changed the essence of the race too
And somehow are putting people more at risk too, for two reasons. The first one is that you put a turn point in St. Moritz, you know, where we know every day it is 45 km per hour wind, you know, and people will have to land there and sign the sign board. So that's for me doesn't really make sense. That's a dangerous approach to it. That's one thing. But the other thing is that also we used to race without pressure.
because no one really knew what options was the best until the end. What I mean here is that if you have three or four turn points, then you're like, okay, some of the guys went north and some of the guys went south. And we will only know in four or five days who was right.
when there's so many turn points, everyone is racing on the rail, you know, and you always know where you stand. Like he's in front, he's in the back, he's faster, I'm slower. And you kind of get stressed with it a little bit more. know, when before the guys would go north and then some would go south and then six days later, the north option was the best one. And everyone was kind of looking at it and who is gonna make it first out. But the pressure was not so hard, you know, the pressure of getting to the next turn point,
front of the other, the pressure to land in shitty places and stuff. And I think I'm personally, but I know you're there too, like I would love to see a race with zero turn points. Like let's go from Salzburg to Mont Blanc, Mont Blanc to... The first XSATS 2003 was only one turn point in Verbier. was Salzburg to Verbier, Verbier, yeah Verbier and then it was Mont Blanc and to Monaco. It's beautiful because then it gives you creativity, it gives
Gavin McClurg (01:17:42.071)
Mont Blanc, yeah. El River Bay, that's right, yeah.
Tom (01:17:52.308)
like people can make their own decisions, you can go, you know, and it was really interesting. Now it's race on the track and it takes away also the adventure side of it a little bit. That's very personal. I understand that we need turnpoints, it also some partners for the race to give support to the organization and stuff, but I think it has some side effects too.
Gavin McClurg (01:18:02.667)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:18:18.583)
Yeah, now we're into something that's personally, think, really interesting and something I'm really passionate about. And one of the reasons, frankly, I lost some interest in the race, because when we think back, when I think back to my first one, still my best day in all my campaigns was Bellin's own and the Matterhorn, because I flew a line that no one else flew and I went from 18th to 7th that day. And you don't see moves.
done like that very often anymore. Because you can't, you I always think of Nick Nainans when you say this, least, less ter, there was one year, I don't remember, I was 2015 or 2017, he just went into outer space. Where is he going? He went so far north and made it work, you know, with his big block of cheese and his mom. And, you know, I, and we've lost that creativity.
Tom (01:19:10.109)
Yeah, it was beautiful.
Gavin McClurg (01:19:12.983)
It was beautiful. When you have the longer distances, I mean, the classic would be in 21 when Maxime and Kriegel landed within kilometers of one another down by this and Maxime went south and Kriegel went north and Kriegel had an epic and.
just crushed the race and won like he always did by a huge distance. So you've got Maxime, best pilot in the world and with all the same tools and faster on the ground and better in the air and from a technical standpoint for sure and Kriegel just crushed him. And that was, but that leg.
to Piz Palu or whatever it was that year was long and it allowed, yeah, right. And it allowed moves like that. So I think from an adventure standpoint and just race interest spectator standpoint and certainly athlete standpoint, removing turn points gets a lot more interesting. And like you said, and safer. I we had...
Well, certainly Patrick, but Collard, but there were a couple others because of the demanding top landings was the ankle injuries this year. Well, maybe it was only Patrick because John and Gabe's was taken off. John was just a decision in the air at St. Moritz. yeah, mean, the more we put people on the ground, the higher the risk it is for sure.
Tom (01:20:35.273)
Yeah.
Tom (01:20:42.609)
Yeah, it's like it's the only the last centimeter that hurts as we say, you know, it's when you get really close to the ground. So and yeah, I really think that in plus people are rushing, you know, they know, OK, I have the glides. I'm on full speed bar because I'm getting there, you know, and and so it's more dangerous. And I remember the good old times in 2007 where we would enter a valley and then I would say, I think it's this way, you know, and a competitor would say, no, I think it's this way.
Gavin McClurg (01:20:47.307)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:21:11.36)
Yeah
Tom (01:21:12.603)
like all right let's take a minute to try to understand because you know and it's just it was an adventure you know we we didn't have smartphones we didn't have you couldn't send your position you know like my supporter needed to find internet into a tourism office or something like that to get connected to find a Wi-Fi and then to go on the website and see where I was and I would call him and say hey I'm gonna meet you at the church there you know or leave some
Gavin McClurg (01:21:19.39)
Yeah, getting lost.
Tom (01:21:38.782)
you know, some of my gear there. Yeah. And so it was something, you know, and it also allowed people like me and others to race obviously, but maybe the pace was not so aggressive.
Gavin McClurg (01:21:39.906)
Bread crumbs.
Tom (01:21:55.848)
because everyone needed some slack, know, like we would agree on something, you know, like together it was like, okay, we're racing, we're pushing, but hey, we still need to sleep because we had to take that decision too. It's like, it was 24 seven. So we would decide when to sleep and when not to sleep. And then we would kind of agree on things like that. Like we would call each other and say, hey, when you go to sleep tonight, well, let's all, you know, get a proper night because tomorrow it's a heavy day, you know? So we would,
Gavin McClurg (01:22:07.768)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:22:21.938)
Right, cool. Yeah.
Tom (01:22:25.891)
trade like this a little bit, know, between athletes and stuff. We would wait for each other. I remember the first years I worked a lot with Michael Goebbels, who's a great friend, Vincent Sprungley, Julien Weerts. If I was four or five kilometres in front, I'll just sit on a bench and wait for him to come because we would be stronger together, you know.
Gavin McClurg (01:22:27.913)
Awesome.
Tom (01:22:47.847)
This you don't see that happening anymore. Like now people are like full on. So the intensity also came with the social media pressure kind of thing, you know, where people are filming, people are communicating. You want to give your best, you know, your life tracking is at the time, like 2007, the life tracking will fail for half a day, you know. So it was frustrating because you'll get messages. People will send you messages like, why are you resting? And you'll be walking all day, you know, and people will say,
Gavin McClurg (01:22:48.109)
Yeah.
see that anymore.
Gavin McClurg (01:22:59.906)
leaderboard.
Gavin McClurg (01:23:10.498)
like this year.
Tom (01:23:17.911)
Why are you sitting? Move on and keep going, keep pushing. But it was a little bit less pressure, if I can put it that way.
Gavin McClurg (01:23:21.666)
Get going.
Tom (01:23:31.772)
it's true that the pressure puts you in places, know, like in sometimes complicated places. That's where I think we should think of how we can prepare the athletes better. I think a selection process is a good idea. In sailing community, for example, in the sailing races, for example, for the Vendée Globe, again, for these racers around the world, they...
you can only participate if you've done a certain amount of kilometers or nautical miles in certain competitions. So you could totally say, hey, you want to make, you want to be part of the X-HALS. Well, in the last two or three years, you need to participate to as many races and maybe finish as many and cover this type of distance. you, you, make sure that people gather the right experience and, and went through that, you know, and then, you know, okay, because it's hard, like it's very subjective.
If people call each other, I've had some calls from the race director and stuff, hey, who do you think could, what do you think about this guy and this guy? it's like, it's difficult. You don't know, like sometimes people say they've flown 200 kilometers, but you know, who knows really? So it's, I think it's interesting to try to think more about that process for sure. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:24:50.04)
having more of a qualifier. I think that would really help. mean, the turn point thing is, you know, I think we're spot on there. It's hard to imagine much change there because we know that that's how a big way that things are being funded now.
Tom (01:25:07.547)
No, but hey, you know what? As you know, some things went great during this edition, and I think it was one of the most beautiful editions to follow, but also something didn't go to plan, and it's technical problems, the live tracking was maybe not delivering as it used to. So here, I know from, and you probably know too, from the organizers and also from the sponsors, and Red Bull in particular.
everyone was working hard to fix this. It's not like they want to keep it this way. Everyone is striving for perfection. So everyone is trying to make it better for 2027. Which means that we have an opportunity now to really think about how...
Gavin McClurg (01:25:40.781)
Yeah.
Sure.
Tom (01:25:57.192)
you know, how do we want this race? Where do we want it to go? You know, if you were to steer that boat, you know, where do we take it from here? What are the learnings and what can we, know, what kind of like objective, positive, constructive feedback can we get? And what I sometimes, what frustrates me sometimes is that it's not always...
like it looks, know, like people tend to be very critical, especially on social media, especially when their identity is not totally revealed, you know, and you hear all kind of crap. But if you're not there, if you're not in the organization or if you're not in the race or if you're not one of the pilots, you know, it's really hard to have a proper opinion, really. And I think people should criticize less and try to be more constructive and think, OK, well, now we have
Gavin McClurg (01:26:32.193)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:26:51.522)
Mm.
Tom (01:26:52.747)
a chance to make it better. So how do we want it to look? And it's going to be a conversation with the pilots. We will listen to the community, the sponsors, the organizers, pilots. We have to give a voice to everyone and we have to get around the table and fix this. And we need an amazing live tracking system. We need a very clear vision for 2027. We need to work on some of the technical aspects because it's always been very technical.
Imagine the first race, know, we would, the organizers, they will make one film. That was the main objective. So they'll have time, a professional team, helicopters around and stuff. But now it's all about social media and social media need to be fast. You need to deliver every day. It needs to be live. It's technical. I mean, you know it, it's extremely technical. Either you have massive budgets, really big, big budgets, and then you can make it happen or, and it's still paragliding. It's not soccer or it's not America.
control, you know? So we're still trying to do a lot with limited means at the end of the day, you know? And it was great altogether. mean, but, you know, if you want to do it properly, you need a producer, you need a big team, you need a cameraman. Like I would see Tarquin filming himself, you know, trying to do the settings, think about what he has to say, you know, and then jump in his car and drive for six hours to get to the next turn point, you know, and be
Gavin McClurg (01:27:54.05)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:28:14.662)
Tell me about it.
Tom (01:28:22.493)
and stuff. It's, it's, I mean it.
Amazing what you guys been doing, but it's madness. We know it and and so and people see it and they're like, oh He turned his camera on and he forgot about it or things like that and then but they don't realize how much work goes into this It's very easy to be critical But it's not so easy to to deliver like like you guys did so I think now if we want to make it better and we will It's it's it's more about um, know having the right people and the right tools and see okay We could have done that better
Tom (01:28:54.927)
all right let's get another cameraman or let's do this or let's do that but at the end of the day it's all going to be about money for a platform like this to really work you need cash you need money and it's not formula one you and you cannot expect the outcome of drive to survive like the Netflix with a paragliding
Gavin McClurg (01:29:09.357)
Yeah, exactly.
Gavin McClurg (01:29:20.055)
Yeah.
Tom (01:29:23.141)
Events, we would love it to be like this, but it's still okay. It's called the Red Bull Excels and Red Bull is global, but it's still a paragliding event. And most of these paragliding events, if you look at it, it's people working for free, know, not in the Excels, but I mean, most of the races, people are doing it for the fun of it. Like if you go to the X-Pyr, it's some passionate guys that do it, you know, and just want to help and stuff. And it's amazing. It's wonderful.
but it's not perfect either, know, it's difficult. So yeah, I really think 2027 could be a massive, really like a massive success, but we need to, yeah, to find a little bit more clarity right now, I think.
Gavin McClurg (01:30:08.185)
Yeah, I agree. And I mean, I think, you know, if you're listening to the podcast and you're a fan of the race and you know, you're a spectator, take these words to heart. You know, the, the, the, the feedback is wonderful. The, the, the really nasty social media criticism, you know, there are people that take that stuff pretty, you know, they're sensitive to that. And, uh, you know, I, I can say, because I run events, you get to a point where you just go, you know,
this isn't worth it. And, you know, it's an amazing race. You know, Ulrich's got thick skin, you know, and I really appreciate what he and his team, which is huge, are able to do. But yeah, I mean, I think all the bitching is, we could use less bitching. Feedback's wonderful, but bitching sucks.
Tom (01:30:57.384)
Yeah, and it needs to be... it's a democracy, know? It needs to be an open conversation where the pilots are defending themselves and obviously they're not going like everything about the organization. The organization is doing its thing, you know, and has its own...
Gavin McClurg (01:31:02.923)
Yeah.
Tom (01:31:15.228)
objectives, the sponsors, they have a vision and everyone has a little bit of a slightly different way of seeing things which is totally understood, yeah promises are being made, you need to deliver, there's the pressure
Gavin McClurg (01:31:22.329)
A lot of promises being made, yeah, sure.
Tom (01:31:29.866)
And it's the same, like, and then there's the cultural aspect. There's so many things that come into play. And again, most of the time, it's not, things are not what they seem to be, you know, like it's, we all see things through our filters, you know, and we tend to interpret and say, Hey, oh, he meant that, oh, that's what he wanted to say, or he probably did this on purpose. And when you start, you know, if you only scratch the surface, then okay, that's what you see. But if you really
Gavin McClurg (01:31:51.705)
Sure.
Tom (01:31:59.773)
dig down like I've heard so many things about Maxime situation or Tim Maloney and stuff and I know them well and I know what happened and I heard it from them you know and I know that most of the things you read out there it's just not true it's not what happened and so at the end of the day I'm like all right guys let's let's you know take a step back relax a little bit because some of you guys they're like some of these guys they are behind the computer and they love to have a something to
Gavin McClurg (01:32:16.459)
Of Yeah, of course.
Tom (01:32:29.736)
say about things but you know they just they just don't really know they they weren't there and even if you were there it's not even easy to so let's just
Gavin McClurg (01:32:38.615)
It's complicated. mean, that's what it is. I mean, it's complicated. Yeah.
Tom (01:32:39.97)
stay humble, you know, it's complicated. But I think that everyone wants to work in the same direction, which is trying to make the best even possible, where everyone feels respected, where the athletes feels that they are listened to, like the people are understand and that the race is there also for them. And it's...
it's where it's complicated because when there is money involved and sponsors and stuff, people tend to think, they're making millions, but this is not the reality as we know. yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:33:13.145)
Tom, your treasure is always fantastic to catch up with you. It was great kind of working together. We were kind of working together on this one. I hope that, well, I know you're gonna be racing the next time, but I'd sure love to do more of that with you either at the XLPS or in other places, but that was a blast. man, yeah. If my family gets their way, I will.
Tom (01:33:29.854)
I hope you're going to be racing too. Man, but I mean like really.
You know what, like a...
I really thought about it. I think I want to be racing in two years, but let's say this way. If my foot is not perfect or if I cannot really go for 100km and stuff, I would love to play a real role in this because I really enjoyed it. I think you guys had a wonderful team with Dark Queen and stuff. For some reason, I want to be part of this adventure, whatever it is. Maybe one day...
Gavin McClurg (01:34:06.969)
Yeah, that's how I feel. Like you said, it's kind of my family and I just am so grateful. You saw every time you saw me, it's exhausting. It's really hard work and it's so fun. I mean, I just love.
Tom (01:34:09.42)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tom (01:34:21.937)
It is.
Gavin McClurg (01:34:26.189)
I love all of it. was just such a good time. I don't know how, what iteration I'll be in next time, an athlete or doing what I do, but I sure like it. know, whatever iteration it is, it'll be good.
Tom (01:34:38.024)
Yeah, I'm thinking like maybe next time I do it, if I can do it as an athlete, it will be cool to close the loop. I think that next time I would like to be a supporter, you know, and maybe for a rookie or for someone like Jean the BLA or whoever thinks that I could help, you know, because I think that would be a very cool experience to manage a team and try to help. And then maybe to the organization kind of thing, maybe help Ferdy.
Gavin McClurg (01:34:49.753)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:34:54.882)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:35:03.235)
Yeah.
Tom (01:35:08.018)
or be there for the pilots. And I think that's a little bit what has been missing since Anas Akh died. I remember him coming before the start and gathering everyone together. And he had his really nice words for the pilots. And people felt like they were listened to. I remember him one day landing with his helicopter on the road just in front of me. was running. Came out.
Gavin McClurg (01:35:36.365)
No way.
Tom (01:35:37.921)
barefoot out of his helicopter you know in the t-shirt is like Tom this is amazing really cool how do you feel how are you and he he walked for like half a kilometer with me he was barefoot and then jumped back into his helicopter took off and went it was it was incredible man he was magic it was we had he was that connection to the athletes in a way and I feel that now we kind of need that again but but yeah
Gavin McClurg (01:35:42.425)
awesome.
Gavin McClurg (01:35:53.261)
wicked. That's so cool.
Gavin McClurg (01:36:07.3)
Well, you would be a perfect person for that. I mean, you and I, this is a different subject, but it's like the withdrawal thing. We saw it multiple times this race and it breaks my heart. When people just quit and withdraw, if you're hurt, different story. If the medical team comes around and pulls you out, that's a different story. But you know I know, there's a credo to this race that if you're gonna quit, fine.
Tom (01:36:23.839)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:36:37.348)
But sit down, just stay there. Go grab a beer at the pub. Don't withdraw from the race because it's going to eliminate. If somebody's behind you, they're going to get eliminated and they very well.
Tom (01:36:43.689)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:36:47.928)
might wanna keep racing, most of them do. And we saw that multiple times in this one and that breaks my heart. And I think that's where we didn't have you, you were always the one that stood up in that pre-race week and said, hey everybody, all you rookies, you may not know this, but this is how this works. And this is important. And everybody here has been training really hard for a long time and things sometimes don't go your way and you find yourself in last.
Tom (01:36:49.5)
Of course, yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:37:17.868)
But when Lori did that to me and Fisch, because I was on the chopping block in 21, it was such a, it was just, I looked into her eyes, she had a pretty severe fear injury, she was done, but she called me about an hour before that and said, hey, don't worry about it. I'm not, I'm gonna withdraw, but you're gonna get past me and we'll do it after you go, you're in the clear.
Tom (01:37:41.225)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:37:42.365)
was a special moment for both of us, you know, and it's just important and we span, we saw it over and over again this time. People just, they've landed, they're not in the right frame of mind. They probably have lost the plot a little bit. I'm out, you know, they call the race director and they're out and they don't think about the other people in the race.
Tom (01:37:43.796)
Yeah, This year I...
Yeah, and it's like,
Tom (01:37:56.572)
Yeah.
Tom (01:38:00.339)
Not only that, I think they have their reasons, and it's hard to really judge or anything, but I send a message to the guys when Max, Raul, and I put a message out there on the group saying, hey guys,
Gavin McClurg (01:38:05.218)
Yeah, sure. 100%.
Tom (01:38:18.066)
you know, it would have been nice to and then Max called me and said, man, I'm sorry. I didn't think about it. Like he was he just didn't even think about it. I was like, no, you don't have to be sorry. That's OK. That's done now. You know. But yeah, I think sometimes I find it's cool when when we can.
Gavin McClurg (01:38:24.057)
Of
Tom (01:38:35.78)
as a group, you know, we can agree on some things like the gentlemen agreements, you know, we have that fair play and that respect between the athletes, you know, that somehow I think the older generation needs to show it to the younger generation. That's how we do things here. That's how we respect each other. That's how we listen to each other. OK, it's a race, but it's not like you can throw anything at anyone. Like you just have to be respectful. And it's like
Gavin McClurg (01:38:41.06)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:38:54.65)
Yeah.
Tom (01:39:06.324)
Tour de France the other day, know, Jonas falls down and then the rest of the group waits, you know, they wait a little bit because they know it can happen to them too, you know, and so they're like, he'll return the favor at some stage, but it's so much nicer than just say, hey, fuck it, I'm just gone and I don't listen to, I'm not gonna help.
Gavin McClurg (01:39:19.343)
Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:39:26.284)
Yeah, it's just sportsmanship. It's just kindness. It's just mutual respect.
Tom (01:39:29.162)
And we need to, but you need to cultivate this. When we had only one supporter, I remember somehow it was a deal where a team will always propose food to you. a team will pass, stop and say, hey, you need anything. You need water, you need food. Oh yeah, I love a little chocolate or something. And boom, they will throw something at you. It will be a French team, a Spanish team, an American team. And we would help each other all the time.
Gavin McClurg (01:39:33.742)
Yeah, for sure.
Tom (01:39:58.312)
Now that we have massive teams, know, we don't do that anymore. yeah, look who's here. My little one is here. Yeah.
Gavin McClurg (01:40:03.352)
Yeah, that's quite a special sight. look at that. Hello. Hello, little one.
Excellent. Hi, hi. And I should get back to my little one. Well, Tom, thank you very much. Like I said, you're a treasure man. I appreciate it. It was fun working with you. We hit on some good stuff there, and it's good stuff.
Tom (01:40:18.364)
No, thank you so much for your time and yeah again we'll talk, we'll stay in touch and we'll see each other I hope before 2027. Let's go on an adventure or something, let's make a plan. Excellent, wonderful. All right, you take care and all the best to you. Cheers mate. Ciao ciao, bye.
